4 Documentation to do: (a little bit at a time)
5 - Document running a test version.
6 - Document query file format.
7 - Document static linking
8 - Document fixing tape file after crash (update Media set VolFiles=xx
9 where MediaId=yy; update status to append).
12 Testing to do: (painful)
13 - that console command line options work
14 - blocksize recognition code.
16 - test and fix < code and | code.
19 - Write Unix emulator for Windows.
20 - Why is catreq.c:111 Find vol called twice for a job?
21 - Add include list to end of chain in findlib
22 - Fix cancel in find_one -- need jcr.
23 - Write SetJobStatus() function so cancel status not lost.
24 - Find out why Full saves run slower and slower (hashing?)
25 - Test size of hash table needed in find_one using testfind.
27 - Rewrite find_one.c to use only pool_memory instead of
29 - Make sure btraceback goes into /sbin not sysconf directory.
30 - Get correct error status from run_program or open_bpipe().
31 - Figure out how to allow multiple simultaneous file Volumes on
33 - Why are save/restore of device different sizes (sparse?)
36 - Implement some why for the Console to dynamically create
38 - Cancel does not work for restore in FD.
39 - Restore to a particular time -- e.g. before date, after date.
41 - Implement disk spooling
42 - Implement finer multiprocessing options.
43 - Solaris -I on tar for include list
44 - Add whereabslinks to where or not where absolute links
45 - Figure out some way to automatically backup all local partitions
46 - Enable avoid backing up archive device (findlib/find_one.c:128)
47 - Implement FileOptions (see end of this document)
48 - Implement Bacula plugins -- design API
49 - Make hash table for linked files in findlib/find_one.c:161
50 - Make bcopy read through bad tape records.
51 - Need a verbose mode in restore, perhaps to bsr.
52 - bscan without -v is too quiet -- perhaps show jobs.
53 - Add code to reject whole blocks if not wanted on restore.
54 - Implement multiple simultaneous file Volumes on a single device.
55 - Start working on Base jobs.
56 - Make sure the MaxVolFiles is fully implemented in SD
57 - Flush all the daemon messages at the end of every job.
58 - Check if both CatalogFiles and UseCatalog are set to SD.
59 - Check if we can increase Bacula FD priorty in Win2000
60 - Need return status on read_cb() from read_records(). Need multiple
61 records -- one per Job, maybe a JCR or some other structure with
63 - Figure out how to do a bare metal Windows restore
64 - Fix read_record to handle multiple sessions.
65 - Program files (i.e. execute a program to read/write files).
66 Pass read date of last backup, size of file last time.
67 - Put system type returned by FD into catalog.
68 - Possibly add email to Watchdog if drive is unmounted too
69 long and a job is waiting on the drive.
70 - Strip trailing slashes from Include directory names in the FD.
71 - Use read_record.c in SD code.
72 - Why don't we get an error message from Win32 FD when bootstrap
73 file cannot be created for restore command?
74 - Need to specify MaximumConcurrentJobs in the Job resource.
75 - When Marking a file in Restore that is a hard link, also
76 mark the link so that the data will be reloaded.
77 - Restore program that errors in SD due to no tape reports
78 OK incorrectly in output.
79 - After unmount, if restore job started, ask to mount.
80 - Make Restore report an error if FD or SD term codes are not OK.
81 - Convert all %x substitution variables, which are hard to remember
82 and read to %(variable-name). Idea from TMDA.
83 - Add JobLevel in FD status (but make sure it is defined).
84 - Make Pool resource handle Counter resources.
85 - Remove NextId for SQLite. Optimize.
86 - Strip trailing / from Include
87 - Move all SQL statements into a single location.
88 - Cleanup db_update_media and db_update_pool
89 - Add UA rc and history files.
90 - put termcap (used by console) in ./configure and
91 allow -with-termcap-dir.
92 - Enhance time and size scanning routines.
93 - Fix Autoprune for Volumes to respect need for full save.
94 - Fix Win32 config file definition name on /install
95 - No READLINE_SRC if found in alternate directory.
96 - Add Client FS/OS id (Linux, Win95/98, ...).
97 - Test a second language e.g. french.
98 - Compare tape to Client files (attributes, or attributes and data)
99 - Make all database Ids 64 bit.
100 - Write an applet for Linux.
101 - Add estimate to Console commands
102 - Find solution to blank filename (i.e. path only) problem.
103 - Implement new daemon communications protocol.
104 - Remove PoolId from Job table, it exists in Media.
105 - Allow console commands to detach or run in background.
106 - Fix status delay on storage daemon during rewind.
107 - Add SD message variables to control operator wait time
108 - Maximum Operator Wait
109 - Minimum Message Interval
110 - Maximum Message Interval
111 - Send Operator message when cannot read tape label.
112 - Verify level=Volume (scan only), level=Data (compare of data to file).
113 Verify level=Catalog, level=InitCatalog
115 - Add keyword search to show command in Console.
116 - Fix Win2000 error with no messages during startup.
117 - Events : tape has more than xxx bytes.
118 - Restrict characters permitted in a Resource name.
119 - Complete code in Bacula Resources -- this will permit
120 reading a new config file at any time.
121 - Handle ctl-c in Console
122 - Implement LabelTemplate (at least first cut).
123 - Implement script driven addition of File daemon to config files.
124 - Think about how to make Bacula work better with File (non-tape) archives.
126 - Implement new serialize subroutines
127 send(socket, "string", &Vol, "uint32", &i, NULL)
128 - Audit all UA commands to ensure that we always prompt where possible.
129 - If ./btape is called without /dev, assume argument is a Storage resource name.
130 - Put memory utilization in Status output of each daemon
131 if full status requested or if some level of debug on.
132 - Make database type selectable by .conf files i.e. at runtime
133 - gethostbyname failure in bnet_connect() continues
134 generating errors -- should stop.
135 - Set flag for uname -a. Add to Volume label.
136 - Implement throttled work queue.
137 - Check for EOT at ENOSPC or EIO or ENXIO (unix Pc)
138 - Allow multiple Storage specifications (or multiple names on
139 a single Storage specification) in the Job record. Thus a job
140 can be backed up to a number of storage devices.
141 - Implement dump label to UA
142 - Concept of VolumeSet during restore which is a list
143 of Volume names needed.
144 - Restore files modified after date
145 - Restore file modified before date
146 - Emergency restore info:
148 - Backup working directory
150 - Restore -- do nothing but show what would happen
151 - SET LD_RUN_PATH=$HOME/mysql/lib/mysql
152 - Implement Restore FileSet=
153 - Create a protocol.h and protocol.c where all protocol messages
155 - If SD cannot open a drive, make it periodically retry.
156 - Remove duplicate fields from jcr (e.g. jcr.level and jcr.jr.Level, ...).
157 - Timout a job or terminate if link goes down, or reopen link and query.
158 - Find general solution for sscanf size problems (as well
159 as sprintf. Do at run time?
160 - Concept of precious tapes (cannot be reused).
161 - Make bcopy copy with a single tape drive.
162 - Permit changing ownership during restore.
164 - Autolabel should be specified by DIR instead of SD.
165 - Find out how to get the system tape block limits, e.g.:
166 Apr 22 21:22:10 polymatou kernel: st1: Block limits 1 - 245760 bytes.
167 Apr 22 21:22:10 polymatou kernel: st0: Block limits 2 - 16777214 bytes.
170 - AutoScan (check checksum of tape)
171 - Format command = "format /dev/nst0"
175 - Seek resolution (usually corresponds to buffer size)
176 - EODErrorCode=ENOSPC or code
177 - Partial Read error code
178 - Partial write error code
179 - Nonformatted read error
180 - Nonformatted write error
181 - WriteProtected error
185 - IgnoreCloseErrors=yes
195 - FD sends unsaved file list to Director at end of job (see
197 - File daemon should build list of files skipped, and then
198 at end of save retry and report any errors.
199 - Write a Storage daemon that uses pipes and
200 standard Unix programs to write to the tape.
202 - Need something that monitors the JCR queue and
203 times out jobs by asking the deamons where they are.
204 - Enhance Jmsg code to permit buffering and saving to disk.
205 - device driver = "xxxx" for drives.
206 - restart: paranoid: read label fsf to
207 eom read append block, and go
208 super-paranoid: read label, read all files
209 in between, read append block, and go
210 verify: backspace, read append block, and go
211 permissive: same as above but frees drive
212 if tape is not valid.
214 - Ensure that /dev/null works
215 - Need report class for messages. Perhaps
216 report resource where report=group of messages
217 - enhance scan_attrib and rename scan_jobtype, and
218 fill in code for "since" option
219 - Director needs a time after which the report status is sent
220 anyway -- or better yet, a retry time for the job.
221 Don't reschedule a job if previous incarnation is still running.
222 - Some way to automatically backup everything is needed????
223 - Need a structure for pending actions:
225 - termination status (part of buffered msgs?)
226 - Concept of grouping Storage devices and job can use
227 any of a number of devices
229 Read, Write, Clean, Delete
230 - Login to Bacula; Bacula users with different permissions:
231 owner, group, user, quotas
232 - Store info on each file system type (probably in the job header on tape.
233 This could be the output of df; or perhaps some sort of /etc/mtab record.
236 - Design at hierarchial storage for Bacula.
237 - Implement FSM (File System Modules).
238 - Identify unchanged or "system" files and save them to a
239 special tape thus removing them from the standard
240 backup FileSet -- BASE backup.
241 - Turn virutally all sprintfs into snprintfs.
242 - Heartbeat between daemons.
243 - Audit M_ error codes to ensure they are correct and consistent.
244 - Add variable break characters to lex analyzer.
245 Either a bit mask or a string of chars so that
246 the caller can change the break characters.
247 - Make a single T_BREAK to replace T_COMMA, etc.
248 - Ensure that File daemon and Storage daemon can
249 continue a save if the Director goes down (this
250 is NOT currently the case). Must detect socket error,
251 buffer messages for later.
252 - Enhance time/duration input to allow multiple qualifiers e.g. 3d2h
256 Bacula Projects Roadmap
258 last update 5 January 2003
260 Item 1: Multiple simultaneous Jobs. (done)
261 Done -- Restore part needs better implementation to work correctly
263 What: Permit multiple simultaneous jobs in Bacula.
265 Why: An enterprise level solution needs to go fast without the
266 need for the system administrator to carefully tweak
267 timing. Based on the benchmarks, during a full
268 backup, NetWorker typically hit 10 times the bandwidth to
269 the tape compared to Bacula--largely. This is probably due to
270 running parallel jobs and multi-threaded filling of buffers
271 and writing them to tape. This should also make things work
272 better when you have a mix of fast and slow machines backing
275 Notes: Bacula was designed to run multiple simultaneous jobs. Thus
276 implementing this is a matter of some small cleanups and
280 Item 2: Make the Storage daemon use intermediate file storage to buffer data.
281 Deferred -- not necessary yet.
283 What: If data is coming into the SD too fast, buffer it to
284 disk if the user has configured this option.
286 Why: This would be nice, especially if it more or less falls out
287 when implementing (1) above. If not, it probably should not
288 be given a high priority because fundamentally the backup time
289 is limited by the tape bandwidth. Even though you may finish a
290 client job quicker by spilling to disk, you still have to
291 eventually get it onto tape. If intermediate disk buffering
292 allows us to improve write bandwidth to tape, it may make
295 Notes: Whether or not this is implemented will depend upon performance
296 testing after item 1 is implemented.
299 Item 3: Write the bscan program -- also write a bcopy program.
302 What: Write a program that reads a Bacula tape and puts all the
303 appropriate data into the catalog. This allows recovery
304 from a tape that is no longer in the database, or it allows
305 re-creation of a database if lost.
307 Why: This is a fundamental robustness and disaster recovery tool
308 which will increase the comfort level of a sysadmin
309 considering adopting Bacula.
311 Notes: A skeleton of this program already exists, but much work
312 needs to be done. Implementing this will also make apparent
313 any deficiencies in the current Bacula tape format.
316 Item 4: Implement Base jobs.
318 What: A base job is sort of like a Full save except that you
319 will want the FileSet to contain only files that are unlikely
320 to change in the future (i.e. a snapshot of most of your
321 system after installing it). After the base job has been run,
322 when you are doing a Full save, you can specify to exclude
323 all files saved by the base job that have not been modified.
325 Why: This is something none of the competition does, as far as we know
326 (except BackupPC, which is a Perl program that saves to disk
327 only). It is big win for the user, it makes Bacula stand out
328 as offering a unique optimization that immediately saves time
331 Notes: Big savings in tape usage. Will require more resources because
332 the e. DIR must send FD a list of files/attribs, and the FD must
333 search the list and compare it for each file to be saved.
336 Item 5: Implement Label templates
338 What: This is a mechanism whereby Bacula can automatically create
339 a tape label for new tapes according to a detailed specification
340 provided by the user.
342 Why: It is a major convenience item for folks who use automated label
345 Notes: Bacula already has a working form of automatic tape label
346 creation, but it is very crude. The design for the complete
347 tape labeling project is already documented in the manual.
350 Item 6: Write a regression script.
353 What: This is an automatic script that runs and tests as many features
354 of Bacula as possible. The output is compared to previous
355 versions of Bacula and any differences are reported.
357 Why: This is an enormous help in preventing introduction of new
358 errors in parts of the program that already work correctly.
360 Notes: This probably should be ranked higher, it's something the typical
361 user doesn't see. Depending on how it's implemented, it may
362 make sense to defer it until the archival tape format and
363 user interface mature.
366 Item 7: GUI for interactive restore
367 Item 8: GUI for interactive backup
369 What: The current interactive restore is implemented with a tty
370 interface. It would be much nicer to be able to "see" the
371 list of files backed up in typical GUI tree format.
372 The same mechanism could also be used for creating
373 ad-hoc backup FileSets (item 8).
375 Why: Ease of use -- especially for the end user.
377 Notes: Rather than implementing in Gtk, we probably should go directly
378 for a Browser implementation, even if doing so meant the
379 capability wouldn't be available until much later. Not only
380 is there the question of Windows sites, most
381 Solaris/HP/IRIX, etc, shops can't currently run Gtk programs
382 without installing lots of stuff admins are very wary about.
383 Real sysadmins will always use the command line anyway, and
384 the user who's doing an interactive restore or backup of his
385 own files will in most cases be on a Windows machine running
389 Item 9: Add SSL to daemon communications.
391 What: This provides for secure communications between the daemons.
393 Why: This would allow doing backup across the Internet without
394 privacy concerns (or with much less concern).
396 Notes: The vast majority of near term potential users will be backing up
397 a single site over a LAN and, correctly or not, they probably
398 won't be concerned with security, at least not enough to go to
399 the trouble to set up keys, etc. to screw things down. We suspect
400 that many users genuinely interested in multi-site backup
401 already run some form of VPN software in their internetwork
402 connections, and are willing to delegate security to that layer.
405 Item 10: Define definitive tape format.
408 What: Define that definitive tape format that will not change
409 for the next millennium.
411 Why: Stability, security.
413 Notes: See notes for item 11 below.
416 Item 11: New daemon communication protocol.
418 What: The current daemon to daemon protocol is basically an ASCII
419 printf() and sending the buffer. On the receiving end, the
420 buffer is sscanf()ed to unpack it. The new scheme would
421 be a binary format that allows quick packing and unpacking
422 of any data type with named fields.
424 Why: Using binary packing would be faster. Named fields will permit
425 error checking to ensure that what is sent is what the
426 receiver really wants.
428 Notes: These are internal improvements in the interest of the
429 long-term stability and evolution of the program. On the one
430 hand, the sooner they're done, the less code we have to rip
431 up when the time comes to install them. On the other hand, they
432 don't bring an immediately perceptible benefit to potential
433 users. Item 10 and possibly item 11 should be deferred until Bacula
434 is well established with a growing user community more or
435 less happy with the feature set. At that time, it will make a
436 good "next generation" upgrade in the interest of data
442 ======================================================
444 It is somewhat like a Full save becomes an incremental since
445 the Base job (or jobs) plus other non-base files.
447 - New BaseFile table that contains:
448 JobId, BaseJobId, FileId (from Base).
449 i.e. for each base file that exists but is not saved because
450 it has not changed, the File daemon sends the JobId, BaseId,
451 and FileId back to the Director who creates the DB entry.
452 - To initiate a Base save, the Director sends the FD
453 the FileId, and full filename for each file in the Base.
454 - When the FD finds a Base file, he requests the Director to
455 send him the full File entry (stat packet plus MD5), or
456 conversely, the FD sends it to the Director and the Director
457 says yes or no. This can be quite rapid if the FileId is kept
458 by the FD for each Base Filename.
459 - It is probably better to have the comparison done by the FD
460 despite the fact that the File entry must be sent across the
462 - An alternative would be to send the FD the whole File entry
463 from the start. The disadvantage is that it requires a lot of
464 space. The advantage is that it requires less communications
466 - The Job record must be updated to indicate that one or more
468 - At end of Job, FD returns:
469 1. Count of base files/bytes not written to tape (i.e. matches)
470 2. Count of base file that were saved i.e. had changed.
471 - No tape record would be written for a Base file that matches, in the
472 same way that no tape record is written for Incremental jobs where
473 the file is not saved because it is unchanged.
474 - On a restore, all the Base file records must explicitly be
475 found from the BaseFile tape. I.e. for each Full save that is marked
476 to have one or more Base Jobs, search the BaseFile for all occurrences
478 - An optimization might be to make the BaseFile have:
484 This would avoid the need to explicitly fetch each File record for
485 the Base job. The Base Job record will be fetched to get the
486 VolSessionId and VolSessionTime.
487 =========================================================
489 ==========================================================
491 For each Incremental job that is run, there may be files that
492 were found but not saved because they were locked (this applies
493 only to Windows). Such a system could send back to the Director
494 a list of Unsaved files.
496 - New UnSavedFiles table that contains:
500 - Then in the next Incremental job, the list of Unsaved Files will be
501 feed to the FD, who will ensure that they are explicitly chosen even
502 if standard date/time check would not have selected them.
503 =============================================================
507 =============================================================
509 Request For Comments For File Backup Options
512 Subject: File Backup Options
515 A few days ago, a Bacula user who is backing up to file volumes and
516 using compression asked if it was possible to suppress compressing
517 all .gz files since it was a waste of CPU time. Although Bacula
518 currently permits using different options (compression, ...) on
519 a directory by directory basis, it cannot do it on a file by
520 file basis, which is clearly what was desired.
522 Proposed Implementation:
523 To solve this problem, I propose the following:
525 - Add a new Director resource type called FileOptions.
527 - The FileOptions resource will have records for all
528 options that can currently be specified on the Include record
529 (in a FileSet). Examples below.
531 - The FileOptions resource will permit an exclude option as well
532 as a number of additional options.
534 - The heart of the FileOptions resource is the ability to
535 supply any number of ApplyTo records which specify POSIX
536 regular expressions. These ApplyTo regular expressions are
537 applied to the fully qualified filename (path and all). If
538 one matches, then the FileOptions will be used.
540 - When an ApplyTo specification matches an included file, the
541 options specified in the FileOptions resource will override
542 the default options specified on the Include record.
544 - Include records will be modified to permit referencing one or
545 more FileOptions resources. The FileOptions will be used
546 in the order listed on the Include record and the first
547 one that matches will be applied.
549 - Options (or specifications) currently supplied on the Include
550 record will be deprecated (i.e. removed in a later version a
551 year or so from now).
553 - The Exclude record will be deprecated as the same functionality
554 can be obtained by using an Exclude = yes in the FileOptions.
557 The following records can appear in the FileOptions resource. An
558 asterisk preceding the name indicates a feature not currently
562 - Compression= (GZIP, ...)
563 - Signature= (MD5, SHA1, ...)
565 - OneFs= (yes/no) - remain on one filesystem
566 - Recurse= (yes/no) - recurse into subdirectories
567 - Sparse= (yes/no) - do sparse file backup
568 - *Exclude= (yes/no) - exclude file from being saved
569 - *Reader= (filename) - external read (backup) program
570 - *Plugin= (filename) - read/write plugin module
573 - verify= (ipnougsamc5) - verify options
576 - replace= (always/ifnewer/ifolder/never) - replace options currently
578 - *Writer= (filename) - external write (restore) program
582 Currently options specifying compression, MD5 signatures, recursion,
583 ... of a FileSet are supplied on the Include record. These will now
584 all be collected into a FileOptions resource, which will be
585 specified on the Include in place of the options. Multiple FileOptions
586 may be specified. Since the FileOptions contain regular expressions
587 that are applied to the full filename, this will give the ability
588 to specify backup options on a file by file basis to whatever level
597 Include = compression=GZIP signature=MD5 {
606 Include = FileOptions=Opts {
617 That's a lot more to do the same thing, but it gives the ability to
618 apply options on a file by file basis. For example, suppose you
619 want to compress all files but not any file with extensions .gz or .Z.
620 You could do so as follows:
624 Include = FileOptions=NoCompress FileOptions=Opts {
632 ApplyTo = /*.?*/ # matches all files
637 # Note multiple ApplyTos are ORed
638 ApplyTo = /*.gz/ # matches .gz files */
639 ApplyTo = /*.Z/ # matches .Z files */
642 Now, since the NoCompress FileOptions is specified first on the
643 Include line, any *.gz or *.Z file will have an MD5 signature computed,
644 but will not be compressed. For all other files, the NoCompress will not
645 match, so the Opts options will be used which will include GZIP
649 - Is it necessary to provide some means of ANDing regular expressions
650 and negation? (not currently planned)
652 e.g. ApplyTo = /*.gz/ && !/big.gz/
654 - I see that Networker has a "null" module which, if specified, does not
655 backup the file, but does make an record of the file in the catalog
656 so that the catalog will reflect an exact picture of the filesystem.
657 The result is that the file can be "seen" when "browsing" the save
658 sets, but it cannot be restored.
660 Is this really useful? Should it be implemented in Bacula?
663 After implementing the above, the user will be able to specify
664 on a file by file basis (using regular expressions) what options are
665 applied for the backup.
666 ====================================
668 Done: (see kernsdone for more)
669 - Add EOM records? No, not at this time. The current system works and
671 - Add VolumeUseDuration and MaximumVolumeJobs to Pool db record and
673 - Add VOLUME_CAT_INFO to the EOS tape record (as
674 well as to the EOD record). -- No, not at this time.
675 - Put MaximumVolumeSize in Director (MaximumVolumeJobs, MaximumVolumeFiles,
677 - Enhance schedule to have 1stSat, ...
678 - Make sure catalog doesn't keep growing.
679 - On I/O error, write EOF, then try to write again ? No, keep it simple.
680 - Figure out how compress everything except .gz,... files.
681 Implement FileOptions.
682 - Put Bacula version somewhere in Job stream, probably Start Session Labels.
683 - Fix start/end blocks for File devices
684 - Make Job err if WriteBootstrap fails.
685 - Test that mod of restore options works.
686 - Test that week position schedule code works.
687 - Make BSR accept count (total files to be restored).
688 - Add code to fast seek to proper place on tape/file when doing Restore.
689 - Replace popen() and pclose() -- fail safe and timeout, no SIG dep.
690 - Add code to put VolFile in bsr for restore command.
691 - Volumes can be listed multiple times in Restore volume list.
692 - Add watchdog timeout for child processes start_child_timer()
694 - Get rid of bscan.c:534 error message (one time only).
695 - Print some statistics when get EOF on device in bscan -- feedback
696 to let user know it is working.
697 - DateWritten field on tape may be wrong.
698 - Ensure that restore of differential jobs works (check SQL).
699 - Count number of ignored messages in bscan and print when first SOS is found.
700 - Test that EndFile/Block are correctly updated at end of tape
701 (in view of new block reading code).
702 - Test watchdog child timer code.
703 - Test new BSR code (mostly done).
704 - Work more on how to to a Bacula restore beginning with
705 just a Bacula tape and a boot floppy (bare metal recovery).
706 - Restore options (overwrite, overwrite if older,
707 overwrite if newer, never overwrite, ...)
708 - Fill all fields in Vol/Job Header -- ensure that everything
709 needed is written to tape. Think about restore to Catalog
710 from tape. Client record needs improving.
711 - Implement ./configure --with-client-only
712 - Finish up static linking
713 - that restore options work in FD
714 - Backup of raw partitions
715 - Document nofollow flag
716 - Make sure restore options are documented
717 - Should we dump a SOS when starting a new tape? (no -- too complicated)
718 - Fix gethostbyname() to use gethostbyname_r() -- no added mutex
719 - Add HOST to Volume label.
720 - Need to save contents of FileSet to tape? -- no not now
721 - Fix db_get_fileset in cats/sql_get.c for multiple records.
722 - Fix catalog filename truncation in sql_get and sql_create. Use
723 only a single filename split routine.
724 - Figure out how to save the catalog (possibly a special FileSet).
725 - Figure out how to restore the catalog.
726 - Make sure differential handled correctly
727 - Look at ua_prune.c in detail. Why did JobType work at all??????